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fratka
Prestigious Innovator Of Ghost Study
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 567
Location: Alvin, TX
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 Posted: May Mon 08, 2006 11:03 am Post subject: Where are all the skeptics? |
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I didn't know that skeptics took a day off!? I would like to argue over some of the pointless arguements skeptics and debunkers make!
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Frank Ratka
Death does not exist!
http://thecontactfield.blogspot.com/ |
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Ghost Lovin Phreak!
Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Oct Mon 16, 2006 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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I am an open-minded skeptic. I am willing to admit there are possibilities in theories set about by paranormal researchers and others.
But there are many things/events that fall under the heading of "I don't know" and too many people trying to draw assumptions about these events; calling their assumptions "proof".
This goes for hardcore skeptics (cynics) and hardcore believer (faith-based message peddlers). I find both extremes problematic and am skeptical of many claims on each side.
I have a possible challenge for you, depending on how you answer the following question. It assumes you believe in EVP/ASSP:
Is EVP/ASSP proof of survival beyond death?
Note: I'm not asking you to defend the reality of EVP itself here, as I see evidence of something outside the laws of nature as we know them going on with this. |
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fratka
Prestigious Innovator Of Ghost Study
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 567
Location: Alvin, TX
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| Posted: Oct Mon 16, 2006 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, what a loaded question!! LOL
No, EVP is not proof of survival after bodily death. And I'm not just saying that! Actually the way you described your approach to skepticism falls in line with the majority of our arguements. I can really only speak for myself here but I don't like or adhere to either extreme. Instead I sway in the middle! I am highly scientific in my research approach but I also know enough and have enough experience to pay attention to subjective reality.
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Frank Ratka
Death does not exist!
http://thecontactfield.blogspot.com/ |
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fratka
Prestigious Innovator Of Ghost Study
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 567
Location: Alvin, TX
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| Posted: Oct Mon 16, 2006 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, I really do not prefer to use the ASSP reference because, for the most part I am not interested in other recorded sounds beyond the voices. Doors banging, knocks, dogs howling, muffled whimpers, dragging sounds and so on are too difficult to differentiate from "real" noises in the environment. At least with the recorded voices and following proper protocal we can tell if anyone present was speaking or if something else was....
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Frank Ratka
Death does not exist!
http://thecontactfield.blogspot.com/ |
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Ghost Lovin Phreak!
Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Oct Mon 16, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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Reworded to fit your preference:
Is EVP proof of survival beyond death? |
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fratka
Prestigious Innovator Of Ghost Study
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 567
Location: Alvin, TX
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| Posted: Oct Tue 17, 2006 7:23 am Post subject: |
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Reposted from two posts up:
| Quote: | | No, EVP is not proof of survival after bodily death. And I'm not just saying that! Actually the way you described your approach to skepticism falls in line with the majority of our arguements. I can really only speak for myself here but I don't like or adhere to either extreme. Instead I sway in the middle! I am highly scientific in my research approach but I also know enough and have enough experience to pay attention to subjective reality. |
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Frank Ratka
Death does not exist!
http://thecontactfield.blogspot.com/ |
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Ghost Lovin Phreak!
Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Oct Tue 17, 2006 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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Haha - sounds like you and I arguing about this would just be like each of us preaching to the choir. I consider a true skeptic a person in the middle too (healthy), with cynics on one pole and blind bleevers on the other.
It's refreshing to run into a place for open-minded skeptics. I'm used to having tomatos hurled toward me when I express a view that 'EVP is not (necessarily)proof of survival beyond death'.
I do have a question for you though. Not at all trying to launch an attack, but truly wondering:
I see you have some links, one a blog entitled “ghostphysics” and the other, “texashauntedforum”. Q: Why the frank references to ghosts and hauntings if your work doesn’t rest on the life-after-death hypothesis? |
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fratka
Prestigious Innovator Of Ghost Study
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 567
Location: Alvin, TX
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| Posted: Oct Tue 17, 2006 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I see you have some links, one a blog entitled “ghostphysics” and the other, “texashauntedforum”. Q: Why the frank references to ghosts and hauntings if your work doesn’t rest on the life-after-death hypothesis? |
Oh, I never said that I believed in life or death for that matter. I am just an honest researcher when it comes to finding evidence of it. I have a long background in electrodynamics, RF tranmission systems and electromagetic theory. I have a general sense of what is and isn't possible when it comes to these subjects, which keeps my search for answers in perspective and based in reality. These anomalies we measure and record are noted for producing anomalies outside what would be considered as "normal". These outsiders are what I research.
There is a big difference between believing and knowing. I don't beleive in anything! Do "ghosts" exist...yes they do! Are they what we thing they are...probably not! Then again, to get a little philosophical....are we what we think we are?
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Frank Ratka
Death does not exist!
http://thecontactfield.blogspot.com/ |
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Ghost Lovin Phreak!
Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Oct Tue 17, 2006 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Oh, I never said that I believed in life or death for that matter. I am just an honest researcher when it comes to finding evidence of it. |
It sounds like you already have evidence for it when you say (below) “Do ‘ghosts’ exist’ … yes they do!” But if you don’t think ghosts are what we think they are, then what qualifies your use of the word “ghosts”, a word people routinely use to describe survival of death, as a serious researcher? Why wouldn’t you use a more different, neutralized term?
This is not about PC thinking Lol, but a question of clarifying the possibilities outside “ghosts”, by saying what you do mean (like entities or something more inclusive).
It reminds me of when people use the word "demons" in a scientific research setting, denying there may be "demons" the way everyone else sees them (?) So why use the word at all?
| Quote: | | I have a long background in electrodynamics, RF tranmission systems and electromagetic theory. I have a general sense of what is and isn't possible when it comes to these subjects, which keeps my search for answers in perspective and based in reality. |
Respectable. I agree that a science background is grounding. We science and methodical types also have to watch out for biases and “blindspots” in our thinking nonetheless. Even those of us who have scientific or clinical experience can get it wrong at times.
| Quote: | | These anomalies we measure and record are noted for producing anomalies outside what would be considered as "normal". These outsiders are what I research. |
Yeah. I'm just saying that one of my petpeeves is finding serious researchers describing things in "ghostly" language. Or when they call themselves "ghost hunters" when they think what they're hunting might not be a classical definition of ghosts. It's misleading in my opinion.
| Quote: | | ..are we what we think we are? |
Hah. I think I see what you’re getting at (maybe). Well I figure we don’t even yet understand the workings of the human body. No one has yet located a region in the brain responsible for the function of memory, and much of the workings of the brain are a complete mystery.
There are theories but no proven reason to explain the need for sleep. We administer potent medication without understanding the mechanisms of the action involved. We can’t locate where sentience is. And so much more.
Funny, I quite literally don’t think we can know who we are because (first) we have such limited knowledge of our physicality. That we might be encasing souls and possibly have a "soul nature", adds another layer of bamboozlement to the mix. |
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fratka
Prestigious Innovator Of Ghost Study
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 567
Location: Alvin, TX
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| Posted: Oct Tue 17, 2006 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | a question of clarifying the possibilities outside “ghosts”, by saying what you do mean (like entities or something more inclusive). |
Point taken but symantical nonetheless. Ghost is a generalized term used to idetify an entity that every person who studies the paranormal can identify. If this was a formal report, I would use a more formal format for my wording. Instead, I use a more recognizable word so that everyone can understand what I mean. It is not beyond me to whip up some technobabble and nontrivial calculus but in the end it is a waste of time for the most part being that only a fraction of the people who read this forum will understand it.
Don't get me started on the whole "Demon" tyraid! LOL
| Quote: | | Even those of us who have scientific or clinical experience can get it wrong at times. |
Without a doubt, that is why I employ friends and associates working in the field of space propulsion systems who can help me wade through the theory and math. Just another failsafe to keep me honest and as correct as I can be... 
| Quote: | | Funny, I quite literally don’t think we can know who we are because (first) we have such limited knowledge of our physicality. |
Bingo! Man (general term) has moved away from his true nature over the past couple millenia but this does not mean that there are not people searching for that meaning once more. Also, who is to say that there aren't people who know those answers right now? I have moved away from trying to prove anything to anyone anymore. As I am sure you probably know and Aedryan is finding out now most "researchers" in this field are highly underqualified, semiconscious, and spiritually ignorant pharisees. No wonder no serious section of science or anyone else for that matter (save hollywood) takes their investigations serious. My god they are running around still talking about angels, demons and elves! WTF!
Anyway, I will save that for the Rantz section! LOL
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Frank Ratka
Death does not exist!
http://thecontactfield.blogspot.com/ |
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Ghost Lovin Phreak!
Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Oct Wed 18, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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LOL Well we can just agree to disagree on whether or not the term "ghosts" is a misleading, narrow term that appeases the populations' ignorance, or mere semantics whose focus misses the greater fact of the phenomenon itself.
It definitely gives me warm tingly fuzzies to know you don't use "ghosts" in research settings though! I get squeamish around that.
Yeah ... demons, angels, oh BOY. I wouldn't want those suckers in any lab of mine, haunting the contents of my reports.
Anyway we seem to agree on a lot of things. A minor miracle considering how quirky my views can be. |
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