| View previous topic | View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
OMS Transmitting
Ghost Lovin Phreak!
Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 119
|
 Posted: Dec Sun 03, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject: Personal Classification System for ASSP/EVP Legitimacy |
 |
|
Classification System for ASSP (Anomalous Speech & Sound Production) - Legitimacy Guidelines:
Class A - Requires at least one witness in a scientifically controlled setting. One or more of these conditions must be met when alleged positive results were attained (quite difficult):
1. A sound-proof environment with complete blocking of EM signals (Ex: Faraday Cage), with positive results.
2. High contextual correlation value - Utterances compliment stream of human conversation, and/or sounds/words otherwise appearing to be a specific sentient response to human speaking.
(Yes/no answers may be too weak to meet this requirement, unless said in a tone/volume, etc. strongly coorelating with the speaker’s conversational content. … Working on finding an objective way to measure this).
3. Scientific proof of ASSP is established - Meaning above conditions are met, large # of random blind subjects concur on specific interpretation of utterances (statistically significant # of subjects independently arrive at same interpretation of words, sounds), and conditions can be continually repeated with predictable, positive results in a scientific setting - a serious challenge.
… As you can see, a Class A capture is an ideal. It entails a cool-headed rigorous professional, scientific approach. The gauntlet has been thrown down and I suppose it’s anybody’s opportunity.
Class A2 - Requires at least one witness and …
1. A sound-controlled, not necessarily sound-proof, environment … with one qualifier: There must be a strong volume-proximity value for anomalous voice or sound relative to querent’s voice, as reflected by an objective audio program (for sound wave comparisons).
2. High contextual correlation value
Class B - A witness is desirable.
1. Environment less controlled for noise/sound: For ex., inside a small quiet room w/thick walls, and no vents, but perhaps traffic or footsteps in the distance. To compensate, volume-proximity value of anomalous voice relative to querent’s is similar or near-similar.
2. High contextual correlation value (I’m developing a system for gauging this as objectively as possible BTW)
Class B2 – A witness is desirable.
Same as above, except environment can be somewhat less controlled for noise. For ex: A semi-public environment like a library, again with high volume-proximity value to potentially offset confounding background noise.
Class C
Any environment/situation less controlled than the aforementioned categ.s. This is why I don’t like open areas (including the ever-popular graveyard sites) . There may be a lack of human noises, but now you have wind, rustling trees, birds, planes, distant rush of traffic and so on. Most of my recordings are Bs and B2s. Some start at a B2 and degrade into a C as someone suddenly starts mowing a lawn in the near distance, or there’s a screaming child or vacuum starting up somewhere in the building. Or loud footsteps in a nearby stairwell.
It’s still a work in progress. |
|
|
... |
|
 Back to top |
Aedryan Methyus
Prestigious Innovator Of Ghost Study
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 952
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
|
| Posted: Dec Sun 03, 2006 6:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
My thing with this is, there really shouldn't be a whole lot of need to "legitimize" EVP's if strict protocols are adhered to during investigations. EVP's should be legitimized BY following strict protocols. EVP sessions shouldn't ever even be conducted in some of the inadvertant environments, which you have detailed in your system - Situations where someone suddenly starts mowing a lawn in the near distance or a vacuum starting up somewhere in the building, etc. Additionally, sounds like "wind, rustling trees, birds, planes, distant rush of traffic and so on" aren't something anyone would/should even be giving any kind of consideration to anyway.
Controlling the environment to the extent of going as far as constructing a pretty costly and bothersome soundproof room is a little extreme and unfeasible in my opinion. Yeah, it would be nice if we all had access to such an environment to further add to our studies, but it's not very likely that many of us do and it's really not necessary.
I don't know if your system is intended specifically for "ASSP" or EVP's, but as we've kinda already discussed here in the past, "ASSP" isn't really something that is given any consideration in paranormal investigation (that I know of). To the best of my knowledge, I don't think the term "Anomalous Speech & Sound Production" is even an actual recognized paranormal investigative term, is it? I'm just wondering, because I have never heard of it and when I search Google, the only results that come up are from your posts here at the forum and at your PutFile.com page. Did you coin this term yourself, OMS?
Yes, we have encountered situations where an investigator stepped on a creaky board or their clothing rubbed together or their feet scuffled on the leaves, etc and ones imagination could form words/sentences from the sounds, but we just totally disregard those types of recordings. It would be silly to try and make something paranormal out of them. Ghostly knockings, disembodied footsteps, etc would be next to impossible to ever prove or lend any legitimacy to. We always try knocking and asking for knock responses during our investigations, but we have yet to ever get a response. It would be one thing to get a series of direct knocking/tapping responses, but otherwise, such sounds would be inconclusive no matter how controlled the environment is.
Please don't get me wrong here. I'm not trying to knock your system, but I just think it is important that people are able to distinguish the difference between Electronic Voice Phenomenon and the types of anamolous "sounds" you are referring to when you use the term "ASSP". They're just not the same thing.
- Aedryan
- Aedryan
_________________
 |
|
|
... |
|
| Back to top |
OMS Transmitting
Ghost Lovin Phreak!
Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 119
|
| Posted: Dec Sun 03, 2006 8:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aedryan Methyus wrote: | | My thing with this is, there really shouldn't be a whole lot of need to "legitimize" EVP's if strict protocols are adhered to during investigations. EVP's should be legitimized BY following strict protocols. EVP sessions shouldn't ever even be conducted in some of the inadvertant environments, which you have detailed in your system - Situations where someone suddenly starts mowing a lawn in the near distance or a vacuum starting up somewhere in the building, etc. Additionally, sounds like "wind, rustling trees, birds, planes, distant rush of traffic and so on" aren't something anyone would/should even be giving any kind of consideration to anyway. |
Hey, I think it’s good to kick this stuff around. My take is: What’s the point of setting up a system and not being receptive to constructive criticism?
My system is designed w every type of investigator in mind, from the person who takes this up as a hobby, to a more serious investigator, to the clinical scientist attempting to legitimize the phenomenon using scientific methodology.
The stricter standards of my ‘A’ class&subclass, is a throwing down of the guantlet. It’s a raising of the bar of the integrity of research. Just because one can’t afford a Faraday Cage doesn’t justify a lowering of the bar and an easy “A”, IMO.
No one is asked to take the scientific route and achieve an “A”. I see it might be upsetting to some ppl to state their best EVP is a “B” on someone’s scale, but I’m more interested in including the scientific approach, rather than excluding it to placate ppl (and thus lowering global standards).
I included the more lax conditions (like sit.s w contending noises) for 3 basic reasons.
First, to identify that there is such a situation. In a class system it's important to show a range of standards because what is less acceptable, is just as important to grasp as what is acceptable. A range system is most balanced when it acknowledges a range of conditions (and results in various assigned value placements).
Secondly, this is done to create a differential by which clinical researchers can gauge/judge their observations and quantify them for reports (using scientific method).
The third reason for an all-inclusive range is to acknowledge that ASSPs captured in relatively weak conditions cannot automatically be discounted as real captures. The burden of credibility will simply be greater. To know what's least acceptable and why, helps tighten procedure. More in a minute … |
|
|
... |
|
| Back to top |
OMS Transmitting
Ghost Lovin Phreak!
Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 119
|
| Posted: Dec Sun 03, 2006 9:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Controlling the environment to the extent of going as far as constructing a pretty costly and bothersome soundproof room is a little extreme and unfeasible in my opinion. Yeah, it would be nice if we all had access to such an environment to further add to our studies, but it's not very likely that many of us do and it's really not necessary. |
By the way, there is a group of scientific researcher in the UK that has used a Faraday Cage (very respectable). They also use the term ASSP, which I didn’t coin. I simply took my cue from them. Here's the synopsis of that study:
[ http://www.skyelab.co.uk/review/bb.htm (You can type this address using Altavista Search for more details). Doesn't seem to work in Yahoo Search, etc.]
Report of an Anomalous Speech Products Experiment inside a Double Screened Room
Alexander MacRae, Grianan, Portree, Skye IV51 9DJ UK, ALEC2009@aol.com
Abstract - An Anomalous Speech Products (ASP) experiment is described which took place in a laboratory screened against em radiation and also acoustically isolated. The subsequent treatment of the results through sound-processing is outlined, and the final analysis of the results through the use of a unique multiple-choice system is described. Comparative spectrograms of one ASP utterance and the same thing spoken in normal speech are provided to prove the physical reality of the results. From the results the conclusion is drawn that voices of no natural origin were received in the screened laboratory.
Keywords: screened room - ASP - Anomalous Speech Products.
Introduction
Early in 2003 an experiment took place which has considerable importance for us all. It has importance not just for the subject it addressed, but also for the study of the paranormal, and indeed for science in general.
A phenomenon popularly referred to as the Electronic Voice Phenomenon (EVP) (Raudive, 1971) has been known about for almost 50 years and during that time has been investigated by many researchers, amateur and professional.
Essentially EVP consists of recorded voices for which there is no natural explanation - the voices should not exist. In the early years of EVP it was convenient for skeptics to ascribe such voices to accidental pick-up of radio or environmental sounds.
There is a tendency to assume that the claims of skeptics are logical, rational and based on experimental evidence - purely because they exhibit orthodoxy.
In the early Seventies, with the support of the Perrot-Warwick Scholarship, David Ellis carried out research into EVP at the University of Cambridge - the university that in the 19th Century had given birth to the Society for Psychical Research.
The published record of this research, (Ellis, 1978), concludes with an EVP experiment being carried out in a room screened against all electro-magnetic (em) radiation - such a room being commonly referred to as a 'Faraday Cage'.
The Faraday Cage that was used belonged to a well-known UK electronics company, Pye - a member of their senior management being particularly interested in the phenomenon.
In the final pages of his report Ellis describes how during their experiment in the Faraday Cage a voice was recorded. Being a totally screened environment this could not be due to some radio broadcast or transmission.
It was concluded, however, that the voice must have entered the Faraday cage by acoustic means - it must have been the sound of someone's voice coming from outside.
And so the matter rested. End Report ...
Ok, to save your eyeballs I’ll stop here and start posting again below. Have to run now, but either late tonight or tomorrow I'll respond to the rest. |
|
|
... |
|
| Back to top |
Aedryan Methyus
Prestigious Innovator Of Ghost Study
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 952
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
|
| Posted: Dec Sun 03, 2006 9:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I don't know.... Personally, I just don't put much energy into proving authenticity to people, where EVP's are concerned. We already KNOW for a fact that they exist! In fact, the most significant thing I have already personally proven in my few years as a paranormal investigator is, EVP's not only originate in our dimension, but in the immediate vacinity of where they are captured. Personally, I don't care what the skeptics say. Their arguments are extremely weak.
My focus is moreso on proving sentience and origins, etc. I also think that in time, we may actually be able to determine when and where they are most likely to occure, based on certain environmental conditions and data comparison and we may even be able to trigger them. I also think we're going to figure out a way to communicate with "them" in real time. Some claim this is already possible, but I have yet to see evidence of it.
- Aedryan
_________________
|
|
|
... |
|
| Back to top |
OMS Transmitting
Ghost Lovin Phreak!
Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 119
|
| Posted: Dec Mon 04, 2006 11:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Yes, we have encountered situations where an investigator stepped on a creaky board or their clothing rubbed together or their feet scuffled on the leaves, etc and ones imagination could form words/sentences from the sounds, but we just totally disregard those types of recordings. It would be silly to try and make something paranormal out of them. Ghostly knockings, disembodied footsteps, etc would be next to impossible to ever prove or lend any legitimacy to. We always try knocking and asking for knock responses during our investigations, but we have yet to ever get a response. It would be one thing to get a series of direct knocking/tapping responses, but otherwise, such sounds would be inconclusive no matter how controlled the environment is. |
In the last post ASSP was addressed as a pre-existing scientific term used in at least one scientific study (in UK). Here’s where I agree with you: It seems there are many x’s ambient sounds get judged as authentically paranormal. And I also agree w you that in many of those cases it would be silly to incorporate those sounds into the body of evidence. Couldn’t agree w you more that there are multiple and sundry opportunities to mistake mundane noises for ASSP. This does not nullify the fact that some anomalous sounds do occur from time to time and that they are worthy of study.
Now it’s really interesting that you mention knocking. The very first EVP I got was when I casually mentioned the idea that I saw my friend’s recorder on a show I saw about EVP. Upon playback there are 9 solid knocks on the tape that could be placed in the immediate room (volume comparisons in audio program). This was later followed by someone saying “Yessss” as we were speaking. (Soon thereafter I got my first EVP at home which marked the end of any remaining skepticism lol)
Knocking is reported as one popular feature of “beginning” EVPs claimed by many, since Raudive (maybe before). That you don’t get knocking when you ask for it, merely highlights the fact of their sentience and free will. Not all dogs like barking on command, is what I mean. Apply that rule to entities and humans.
There are many ‘commands’ that are seemingly ignored during most ppl’s investigations. For ex., many people never get an answer to “Tell me what year it is” and such.
Also, I think it’s really important not to make fixed global declarations based on personal observations until we understand more about the phenomenon objectively.
As far as the legitimacy of paranormal sounds (not voices), here's something to consider:
You’re inside a beached ship w a violent past in the early AM. It’s dead still outside w/no one as far as the eye can see. Your team has sealed off all entrances/exits, or some are guarding them carefully.
You record in some of the quiet corridors. Upon playback you hear the sound of bullets flying through the air and explosions like a canon hitting the ship.
Take the same set up except you pick up a voice whispering “The plank”. Or “I'm here”.
Arguably, the anamolous sounds of battle will trump the whispers or even voices, in this situation.
Where you have unexplainable sounds that strongly fit a unique context, you have an anomalous sound, not voice phenomenon. Now you can choose to toss the battle recording out. But highly specialized sounds are every bit as worthy of study than verbal rec.s. Just harder to catch, apparently. The term ASSP represents the verbal and non-verbal reality of the phenomenon. |
|
|
... |
|
| Back to top |
OMS Transmitting
Ghost Lovin Phreak!
Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 119
|
| Posted: Dec Mon 04, 2006 12:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | I don't know.... Personally, I just don't put much energy into proving authenticity to people, where EVP's are concerned. |
It’s true that we have our own reasons for ASSP/EVP involvement. But some people are interested in studying the phenomenon in scientifically controlled situations. It's more about scientific curiosity rather than proving something to others. Where most systems reflect the standards of hobbyists and field investigators, my system reflects those standards AND includes guidelines for scientific researchers too. So it’s more inclusive. Not to say there's anything wrong w your system or others'. Yours is handy for like-researchers.
| Quote: | | … In fact, the most significant thing I have already personally proven in my few years as a paranormal investigator is, EVP's not only originate in our dimension, but in the immediate vacinity of where they are captured. |
I find this extremely difficult to believe. I don’t at all get the sense you’re lying. Just seems like a very very big claim requiring extremely airtight, objective proof. BUT I’m open that you really might have this proof - great. How have you come to these conclusions?
| Quote: | | Personally, I don't care what the skeptics say. Their arguments are extremely weak. |
Yeah I agree there are some weak, standard arguments by skeptics. Although personally, I find it valuable to listen to both sides (skeptics and ‘believers’). At times so-called skeptics (one of which I am to a degree), can make reasonable points too.
| Quote: | | My focus is moreso on proving sentience and origins, etc. I also think that in time, we may actually be able to determine when and where they are most likely to occure, based on certain environmental conditions and data comparison and we may even be able to trigger them. I also think we're going to figure out a way to communicate with "them" in real time. Some claim this is already possible, but I have yet to see evidence of it. |
These are all aspects of the phenom. that science may be useful in explaining. In fact, one of my missions is to involve hardcore scientists in the search for related answers. We have plenty of mystics & believers who have good q’s but lack the objective tools & knowledge necessary to study what may amount to an unknown set of physical laws. Or a misunderstanding of physical laws that need to be righted. |
|
|
... |
|
| Back to top |
Aedryan Methyus
Prestigious Innovator Of Ghost Study
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 952
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
|
| Posted: Dec Mon 04, 2006 12:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yeah, sounds like those of battles taking place (cannons and weapons being fired, soldiers marching, etc) would definitely be keepers! Though, I have never personally heard any kind of evidence like that. Those types of occurrences are typically said to be residual and non-sentient anyway.
I have read tons of claims about these types of occurrences being "witnessed" in Gettysburg. People have reported seeing/hearing everything from actual battles taking place in the battlefields (and even 40 feet off of the ground, up in the sky) to "phantom" airplanes being shot down out of the sky in the middle of the night. It is said that the local law enforcement in Gettysburg receives so many of these reports that they don't even bother responding to them anymore. Yet, has anyone ever produced evidence to support any of these claims on video or even audio? Not to the best of my knowledge! Honestly, I have never seen/heard any evidence of a residual haunting whatsoever. I mean, if the echoing popular belief that residual occurrences loop over and over "like a recording" and they occur at the same times and places have any truth, doesn't it seem like it would be reasonably simple to capture these types of events on video/audio?
- Aedryan
_________________
|
|
|
... |
|
| Back to top |
Aedryan Methyus
Prestigious Innovator Of Ghost Study
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 952
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
|
| Posted: Dec Mon 04, 2006 1:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Aedryan:
In fact, the most significant thing I have already personally proven in my few years as a paranormal investigator is, EVP's not only originate in our dimension, but in the immediate vacinity of where they are captured.
|
| Quote: |
OMS
I find this extremely difficult to believe. I don’t at all get the sense you’re lying. Just seems like a very very big claim requiring extremely airtight, objective proof. BUT I’m open that you really might have this proof - great. How have you come to these conclusions?
|
CLICK HERE!
- Aedryan
_________________
Last edited by Aedryan Methyus on Dec Mon 04, 2006 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
... |
|
| Back to top |
OMS Transmitting
Ghost Lovin Phreak!
Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 119
|
| Posted: Dec Mon 04, 2006 1:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Those types of occurrences are typically said to be residual and non-sentient anyway. |
I didn’t know this. Thanks. Gotta be honest though A, I still think that if the sound strongly fits a context, it’s a keeper (whether residual or sentient). It’s worthy of study.
You educated me again. I didn’t know about all these claims connected w Gettysburg. The problem w/ tracking alleged video/audio evidence w Gettysburg is a basic lack of communication I think. What I mean is there are no doubt plenty of ppl who’ve taken pics and audio (by now) over there. But then it’s likely some who might have collected evidence just share it w their friends, or have websites we don’t know about … or erase it out of fear (if inexperienced w ASSP). There are people like me who feel they have interesting anomalous sounds – not just voices - but don’t advertise it to the world (just a blog that’s hard to find w/out searching for “ASSP” and visit sensible forums like this one). Then again, if you’re saying no one has marched forth w anomalous non-verbal EVPs, then it is curious. In the end (of course) you could be right about residual hauntings!
| Quote: | | Honestly, I have never seen/heard any evidence of a residual haunting whatsoever. I mean, if the echoing popular belief that residual occurrences loop over and over "like a recording" and they occur at the same times and places have any truth, doesn't it seem like it would be reasonably simple to capture these types of events on video/audio? |
Great question. But boy, it’s too bad if residuals either don’t exist OR can’t be easily captured on tape. Because if the capture of an ASSP was predictable it’d be easier to study and easier to prove (for those interested in doing so  ).
I captured a fem. entity saying “Ok” and then producing the sound of heartbeats after I said, “If there’s anything else you’d like to say … please by all means.” I’ll go post that one now in case you’d like to hear it. ... I think the heartbeats in a mausoleum are ironically contextual and would count as anomalous sound. |
|
|
... |
|
| Back to top |
fratka
Prestigious Innovator Of Ghost Study
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 567
Location: Alvin, TX
|
| Posted: Dec Mon 04, 2006 1:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I have to agree with Aedryan here.... The voices are presented in this dimension. That does not mean that the entities themselves are not transdimensional, it just means the voices are presented in the localized environment.
Having said that, even though the entities sound like they are right next to you doesn't mean that they are. What we have learned about ultrasound and acoustics in general is that it can be focused. When speaking of ultrasonics sound in can be narrowly focused and even be conditioned to sound like it is in 3D space when in fact the transducer creating the sound is on the other side of the room. This research has been shown by Dr. Orhan Berktay in his sonar experiments from the 1960's and by Dr. Joseph Pompeii with his audio spotlight.
_________________
Frank Ratka
Death does not exist!
http://thecontactfield.blogspot.com/ |
|
|
... |
|
| Back to top |
OMS Transmitting
Ghost Lovin Phreak!
Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 119
|
| Posted: Dec Mon 04, 2006 1:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Cool, I’ll look into those studies you mention. But I do have a hard time w any hard fast conclusions re:locality when no one has demonstrated how EVP works to begin with (the basic mechanisms). It all seems like unfounded theories to me; opinions. Not fact. Not yet.
As said earlier though, I'll stay open-minded and examine those studies you posted (assuming I can find them). |
|
|
... |
|
| Back to top |
fratka
Prestigious Innovator Of Ghost Study
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 567
Location: Alvin, TX
|
| Posted: Dec Mon 04, 2006 1:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Oh, you can find them without an issue: Dr. Joseph Pompeii, MIT graduate, worked for BOSE, and now is the single distributor for the "Audio Spotlight"
Dr. Orhan Berktay may be a little harder although many across the world use his research for sound studies involving ultrasound. He was the one who developed a lot of the passive sonar and "ping" sonar for the US Navy and other Navies.
_________________
Frank Ratka
Death does not exist!
http://thecontactfield.blogspot.com/ |
|
|
... |
|
| Back to top |
OMS Transmitting
Ghost Lovin Phreak!
Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 119
|
| Posted: Dec Mon 04, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Thanks 8) |
|
|
... |
|
| Back to top |
fratka
Prestigious Innovator Of Ghost Study
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 567
Location: Alvin, TX
|
|
|
... |
|
| Back to top |
|
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
